社交辞令 【しゃこうじれい】, which means a polite or diplomatic way of putting things. That’s a new Japanese phrase I learned through some chatting.
I know the Japanese are polite people and all, but why this? If it occurs in a business context, I can totally understand. It’s somewhat like a formality, and business does have to be formal, since it involves the finances.
However, I do not understand why this “politeness” has to be brought into daily life. Perhaps living as a Singaporean for 17 years of my life has taught me to be straightforward. If I don’t really like someone, I’ll either tell him/her straight, or just ignore that person. I wouldn’t make any heaven-and-earth sort of promises to that person so that I’ll appear as a nice guy in front of the person. That would be worse than being straightforward. That would reek of hypocrisy, and being a hypocrite isn’t exactly the most polite thing.
So much for being polite.
I guess it’s very normal for majority of the Japanese, as seen from the widespread usage of 社交辞令 in daily Japanese life. Heck, they even bring it out of their daily lives and use it in interactions with other non-Japanese. Still, there are always exceptions, and I’m glad that not everyone who’s born a Japanese is like that.
If you haven’t gotten a clue as to what my ranting is all about, here’s a sum up. My stand is simple. 社交辞令 shouldn’t be used in daily life. If you have to be hypocritical with your friends, life isn’t exactly going to be very enjoyable for you. Unless of course, you enjoy hypocrisy.
I guess you have to be a Japanese to truly understand 社交辞令. Or at least live in Japan.
P.S. If this post has offended you, I apologise. It’s basically just to state my opinion of this issue. There is no malice intended.
I think I vaguely understand the concept; a certain section of the middle class in the UK uses ’sorry’ both to apologise and as a response to someone else’s apology. Illogical and overly polite, I can grasp that. I suppose I’m resigned to living with hypocritical language.
So basically you hate white lies. well I do to and that’s why a lot of Japanese piss me off because
“Why don’t you come over for dinner” doesn’t actually mean they’re inviting you to dinner. It just means they’re trying to look like they’re kind and generous but you’re SUPPOSED to understand that it’s the same as them going “I AM POLITE” rather than an actual dinner invitation.
I like to be straightforward to, this is why it’s a culture shock to many Japanese who come to the US that Americans really do mean what they say.
It reminds me of a story where some girl was in the US as an exchange student and the American mom kept asking “would you like seconds?” (during dinner) Being the polite Japanese she couldn’t say no. SHe kept eating until she got sick and threw up - rather than actually being direct and say NO THANK YOU I AM FULL.
GRAh *i randomly got pissed off being reminded of why japanese culture pisses me off* sorry Xp
Oh boy, I wonder what kinds of things I might experience in Japan if I go next year? Hinano has been worried here. I hope I’m not too rude and brash like a typical American can be…
社交辞令 is multi role word. If you mean “innocent flattery”, It’s sometimes used in daily life.
Most animes have lots of examples…
IKnight > Using “sorry” to react to an apology isn’t that bad as compared to some other stuff.
Hinano > Yes, I get exactly what you mean! My experiences are somewhat similar to your example, and I actually believed that they were somewhat inviting me. I guess it’s a cultural shock for me too.
Koji Oe > I’m not too sure, since I have only been to a homestay exchange program once, and it was a 2 day 1 night stay. Besides that, my experiences are rather limited. I wish you good luck if you’re heading over for your studies.
don777 > I see, so “innocent flattery” is what it’s called. I don’t really think it’s that innocent, since white lies are considered lies too. Does this often happen in Japan? Or maybe I just had some (un)lucky encounters?
This is probably all attributed to the whole “indirect” nature of Japanese, and probably a manifestation of the whole “let’s be nice to each other alright?” to avoid the least amount of conflict vs an outright objection.
I think it can be best summed up in a situation e.g.
Girl A: Do you think I’m fat…?
Girl B: Ah… sonna!! (I’m purposely using Girl B instead of Boy, because men would GENERALLY just say “No, you’re not fat” esp if it’s er, someone they like)
or
Girl: Are you free this Saturday to watch a movie?
Boy: (detests Girl and doesn’t want to.) Iie… chotto… (will probably insert something like, “I’m busy!!!”)
Of course these are not to be seen as like, key examples or anything.
Actually, while I do agree with you that “white lies are lies”, personally, isn’t this stand a little hard to er, believe in - unless you’ve definitely never told a white lie before?
I don’t really find 社交辞令 hypocritical per say, but I do find it tiring.
I don’t hate white lies. It’s something that every human has done at least once in his/her life. It’s not about telling white lies, its the frequency of the telling of white lies.
Maybe stating that 社交辞令 is hypocrisy was too harsh. You can think of it as beating round the bush. I personally hate it. Being indirect occasionally is alright, such as in the business context. However, to continue being indirect even in informal situations, that is something I dislike.
I hate having to consider all the various things someone being indirect is trying to tell me, simply because life would be much easier if he/she was straightforward. Why make life more difficult when it already is?
Well, all this is just my personal opinion, so feel free to disagree with it.
double > “innocent flattery” has no Japanese direct translation word. I think いい嘘[ii uso =white lie] has close meaning. “innocent flattery” sometimes means お世辞[oseji], and sometimes means 言い訳[iiwake].
Soshi > Thanks for good two “white lie” examples. Thease white lies are highly common even in close good friends(^^;. I think these “white lie” are not lies at all. It’s the art of Japanease indirect expression…
Actually, the politeness is one of the things that I like about Japanese culture. Seeing how in the Western world everyone’s all “ME ME ME FUCK YOU GO DIE ME ME ME”, I really enjoyed an environment where not everyone’s getting angry over being bumped into and threatening law suits.
It’s definitely not necessary in interactions with close friends and family though, and I don’t think it’s used in those situations even by Japanese people. I think this is one of the reasons why Tomoya in CLANNAD resents his father so much - his dad does this whole shakoujirei thing to him, and he feels like he’s not family.
I hope what Hinano was saying is a rare case, because that’s gone beyond the realm of politeness to that of retardation.
I actually saw a video on this on niconico, someone linked it to one of my related posts on this issue..
ah found it!
http://www.minaidehazukashii.com/hinano/2007/10/31/japanese-racism-at-its-finest-a-can-of-worms/
There’s some links in there showing Japanese and Americans who live in Japan discussing this whole thing. And the Americans are liek Why cant you just SAY what you mean? And the Japanese are like how can you just SAY what you mean?
lol
err 社交辞令
is that chinese or japanese? any ideas. lol
don777 > Ah thanks, I’ve learnt something new ^^ Maybe the reason why I’ve rather against 社交辞令 and unable to appreciate the art of Japanese indirect expression is due to personal experience. Before that, I wasn’t that aginst it. Anyway, I looking forward to meeting you next month when I go over =)
Lupus > My liking’s rather moderated. I don’t really like too much politeness, but at the same time, I don’t like what you described about the western world either. That would just be pure retarded, LOL. Just some normal interaction, telling me what you what and what you don’t want nicely and not beating around the bush would be ideal.
Hinano > I just don’t understand, lol.
Choo > Japanese. The romanji is shakoujirei.
I find that, oddly enough, I do in fact suffer from a bit of 社交辞令, but as I’m an expressive person (It’s easy to pick up my mood from my voice or actions) I find that it compliments it well. Still, though, I have no problem saying what I mean when the situation calls for it. I suppose the direct mentality in me still lives on.
@Choo: I’m pretty sure it’s Japanese.
@Hinano: Some of the links in the comments section don’t work; the videos were removed. One of them has an error message which plays a footage of a boat in the background instead of the usual ear-splitting screech and black background.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZUVQuk-juw has a really interesting talk/discussion on Japan’s expenditure (my Japanese is no where near understanding the technical jargon they use but I guessed as much XD) and ahaha, well, this certainly kind of dispels the whole notion that the Japanese try to avoid conflict. XD
@Choo: It’s Japanese, but in kanji.
This is what happens when you are in two extremes: on one hand, you got too straightforward mentality, and that makes a litigating trigger-happy society. When you have a too polite mentality and beating around the bush, you have the most frustrating society.
It’s all about moderation: you can use white lies when the situation needs you to, like negotiations and appeasing the superiors, but at the same time, among close friends and significant others, you should refrain from being so overly anachronistic about telling the truth.
I like the Japanese; they refined the art of shakoujirei, which basically is a form of poetic speech, but I wouldn’t try making it a habit to beat around the bush.
I think its a little presumptuous to say that hypocrisy shouldn’t be practised in real life. What you see as hypocrisy, I see as tact. If a girl whom you go to class with asked you whether the top she was wearing suited her when it didn’t, would you then be ‘unhypocritical’ and say “no, it doesn’t suit you at all. you would be better off not wasting your money on clothes in this style”? In the same way, would you tell a lecturer that his teaching style sucked and, the reason students were regularly skipping his classes? Your ’straightforwardness’ implies that you will take actions like this. Or would you ignore your teacher then? All of us are hypocritical to a certain extent. I think the main problem lies in our intentions. For the Japanese, its a way of life. Its what their society is built upon and its what they use to get through life. Classifying 社交辞令 as a no-can-do shows a very narrow-minded way of thinking, which I don’t think would hold you in good stead, seeing that you intend to enter university.
RZ > It’s alright to use 社交辞令 in formal scenarios such as school and work. One should be polite in such scenarios. I did say that hypocrisy should not be used in daily life, but I never said anything about real life. In my opinion, daily life is among really close friends. When it’s used in daily life among close friends, I think that’s when it goes overboard.